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YSU Penguin Athletics => YSU Penguin Athletics => Topic started by: goodnews on September 18, 2013, 11:57:07 PM
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I watched the short interviews on Vindy.com of Hannon and Scalzo. They briefly discussed what seems to be an overwhelming concern that is the MVFC. How does a community rally around the program and get excited about a conference that spans thousands of miles and includes air travel with the exception Indiana State. Hannon challenged the university to research everyones favorite topic which is a possible move to the MAC. He brings up many valid points and suggests the MAC to get involved and let the university know what they can do to be more marketable to their conference. I am afraid that YSU is really fighting to stay relevant and it continues to show through attendance.
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it is hard to have any real rival games with all of the road games so far away....it really is ridiculous that YSU plays in the MVFC...
it is also a big dis-advantage for YSU when the team travels to the away games....the facilities at most of the other schools in the MVFC for the visiting teams are sub-par...and laughable...we treat the teams coming into YSU with more then adequate facilities as far as locker rooms..etc...
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Personally I think moving to the MAC would be the best thing YSU can do at this point. Yeah we may get beat up for a few years, that's fine but we could be competitive.
I think the travelling is a huge issue also. You could travel locally within Ohio and Michigan for the MAC, heck I usually forget half the teams in the MVFC because of where they are. Who cares about north dakota? who wants to go there?
Move to the MAC YSU!!!!!
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Personally I think moving to the MAC would be the best thing YSU can do at this point. Yeah we may get beat up for a few years, that's fine but we could be competitive.
We're getting beat up now and people are wanting to fire everyone from the team and coaches to Penny Penguin.
I am sure I heard that Dr. Jon A. Steinbrecher, MAC Commish., was asked about taking in YSU and he said: "in a short version - NO!"
I think it would be a good idea based on travel, rivalries and attendance. I wonder if money (budget) is the real issue.
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My two cents.. "IF" the MAC is not where we belong. I'd like to see a move back to the OVC.. For all sports. I believe that's also a rivalry opportunity. Being in the MVFC only really screws us for carry over chances of a rivalry from B-ball, Baseball etc.. games meets and matches with the same schools 8)
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teh Ohio Valley Conference does not have any football teams from OHIO..!!....the travel is a little better...but not the answer in my opinion...
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We're not getting into the MAC. Plain and simple guys
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According to the Vindicator figures about budgets from last spring:
YSU has a football budget of $3.4 million; the average MAC football budget is $6.9 million
YSU has an overall athletic budget of $12.5 million; the average MAC overall athletic budget is $24.2 million
Where does the MAC get that money? Most of the schools have higher enrollments than we do, some substantially higher. They also assess their students very steep student athletic fees with their tuition bills. Higher fees for our students, most of whom must work while they go to school, is not going to happen, and it should not happen.
And what does the MAC get for all that money? Usually, a lower RPI rating for both men's and women's basketball than the Horizon League.
Now that CAA football has apparently stabilized, that would be a better geographic option. Football-only in a conference with Delaware, Villanova, James Madison; everything else in the geographically sensible Horizon League.
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Not sure why Scalzo keeps beating this MAC dead horse on his Vindy radio.
Hannon wants a committee to study the impact of travel savings on MAC vs MVFC. Well Bob, as Wick points out using Scalzo's numbers, unless 100% of the current YSU athletic budget is for travel, savings on travel isn't going to be enough. In fact, it is going to be a drop in the bucket.
some interesting Tweets here (John Vogel provdied the link on his Twitter account)
https://twitter.com/SportsBizMiss (https://twitter.com/SportsBizMiss)
Kristi Dosh @SportsBizMiss 5m
NCAA CFO said studies show subsidies increase $1.2m when a school moves from FCS to FBS.
Kristi Dosh @SportsBizMiss 11m
The 6 teams who have avg'd more wins per season in FBS than FCS are Boise State, UConn, FIU, La Tech, Marshall and USF.
Expand
Kristi Dosh @SportsBizMiss 13m
Of 19 teams that moved from FCS to FBS from 1978-2010, 6 have avg'd more wins per season in FBS.
Kristi Dosh @SportsBizMiss 15m
To clarify, teams moving from FCS to FBS from 1978-2010 saw their % of winning seasons drop from 64.4% to 37.2%.
Kristi Dosh @SportsBizMiss 21m
Teams that have moved from FCS to FBS from 1978-2010 saw their winning % decrease from an avg of 64.4% to 37.2%.
Kristi Dosh @SportsBizMiss 22m
Just did a radio interview about schools moving from FCS to FBS and remembered some interesting stats I have...
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You cant make the move to FBS without a substantial monetary commitment, there has to be a plan and that plan includes possibly taking a hit on win percentage up front, in the hopes that more exposure, brings more interest that brings more money. Along with this has to be an administration in place that has a proven plan, with a good hiring track record, and patience. Just "going FBS" means nothing. All these things lining up are rare, which is why the success rate for fcs to fbs is so low, and why success rates of most schools that have always been FBS pretty bad. There has to be a plan in place and determination if there is not, its much better and easier to not try.
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DiscMan - well said.
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We can't even compete in the FCS right now.... That's the thing
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I personally think if they can put a good plan together it can be done. I'm sure the first years would be hard but that's like most programs that move up to FBS.
Also how much are these student fees that everyone keeps talking about?
Look at all the previous top tier teams in FCS moving or have moved to FBS. We really wasted our opportunity at moving a long time ago. I wish we would have done this years ago when we were dominating and winning national titles.
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Towson is 313 miles form YSU. In a car that would be about 4.5 to 5 hours with current speed limits. That is still closer than the closest MVFC team. AND we would get more coverage from that TSN outfit in Philly becuase the CAA is beloved to them.
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teh Ohio Valley Conference does not have any football teams from OHIO..!!....the travel is a little better...but not the answer in my opinion...
Better than where we are now. I agree the CAA also would be a better option that the MVFC. The key to all this is going into a conference with ALL SPORTS not splitting the football up from everything else. The MVC would be great for all sports if the YSU Campus was aboutThe MAC is a wild dream periond. We'll never see it in our life time/mine anyways.
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This topic is as regular as my Aunt Betty.
Certainly playing the teams that are in the MAC would be great, close enough so that fans could travel, we know these teams, we can relate to them, a lot more fan interest. Sure there are some minor issues like where do we get the extra money and that may be possible to overcome. BUT and may I repeat BUT the major problem is that they do not want us. Plain and simple.
I do not care for our current league, it is a pretty good league with some great programs. We are also a great program but the schools are just too far away. The Dakotas play some good ball but really, who cares! NDSU played in two title games and I had no interest in watching.
OVC would be a little better, closer schools but not playing at the same level overall.
CAA - I could live with that, tough league, not all but more schools closer to us.
Independent - been there done that. Times have changed so I am not sure this is an option anymore. Would have to play two money games and the non-schollies and then hope to get some nice home and home with several FCS schools.
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Im afraid that in 3-5 years YSU will need the MAC and at that point no one will care what YSU did in the 90s (25 years later) or if they want a home game in return... With the BIG10 no longer playing teams from the MVFC the logical replacement will be adding more games from the MAC... Travel limitations (cost) and regional universities will benefit more and more from their Big Brothers... I just hope that the powers who be at YSU have a vision of what college football will look like in 5 to 10 years...? If you all remember we were late to the dance with money games but must give the AD credit for maximizing the returns financially...
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I have been indifferent to going FBS but after thinking on it:
YSU could get the extra money playing an all FBS schedule. It is sort of like when u make more money you live in a bigger house. If YSU was fbs we could scheddule more than 1 B1/ team each year to help pay the bills plus we would get more money for each game we play against other teams in the MAc etc. I
It is all relative. I haven't disected the numbers but just throwing out the idea.
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A number of thoughts ........
1. The MAC ain't happening. Too expensive. Need double the current athletic budget. No way to fund it.
2. Other than maybe beating cellar dwellars like Akron and maybe Kent, to play the MAC would be a butt kicking annually. YSU would not compete well overall.
3. You got a poor AD right now running the ship. I trust none of his decisions on who to hire , who to extend contacts of, keeping people when they should be let go or who to play. I see an athletic dept in the MAC that would drown all the sports with poor decisions.
4. The overall sports program would also suffer competitively in the MAC, not just football.
5. I note that this season ticket prices went up and can't be justified. People aren't coming because of $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$, just so you know. Concession prices went up and most have to pay to park. How much more would all these have to go up to help fund an entry in the MAC ?
6.Most students don't come to games now. Why should they pay more for athletic fees to support a move to the MAC ? With $$$$$$$$$ tight in the overall university budget, where does academic $$$$$$$$ come from to aid the MAC move ?
7. What advantage is gained recruiting wise over the MAC overall ? I see major problems competeing for the same caliber of athlete ( higher than we have now) .
8.We still don't have a campus baseball diamond. Sorry, but a Pro stadium off campus doesn't cut it.
9. YSU would still be a commuter campus vs MAC schools with full time students living on their campuses , enhancing student life.
10. Like it or not, YSU is still viewed as not as academically acceptable as most of the MAC. That is still a negative view of YSU held by the Presidents and not one easily overcome.
The MAC isn't happening.
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Not to derail this but your point about academics:
Why would YSU be looked at as academically unequal? Most of the MAC schools are liberal arts colleges. No offense to liberal arts majors intended, but colleges that have a a strength in science, technonolgy, engineering and math are much better and produce more job ready students.
YSU has a real strength here. I will give all a personal example. I am one of 5 children and we are all locals to YSU. All of us went to YSU for undergrad. I have two brothers that are MD's. One is an Invasive Cardiologist, one is a Pathologist. I have a sister thatvhas a PhD in Pharmacy (they call them Pharm D's) and I have another sister getting a PhD in molecular biochemistry at Emory University. My brother (the Cardiologist) went to Emory for his fellowship and they accecpt only 2 students per year.
Emory is so impressed with my sister that they have accepted two other YSU students into their elite program and said YSU is one of the best kept secrets that Emory has going for it. The chemistry department at YSU has a pipeline into Emory and they are taking a hard look at more YSU students. Keep in mind that Emory is one of the top programs in the world in biomolecular research. The CDC is even hooked on to their campus. They may take only 14 students from the entire world per year into thier chemistry program. There are currently at least 3 YSU students there now. My sister was the first person from YSU to be accepted into thier chemistry program.
My two brothers and other sister mixed it up a little after YSU but between the 3 they attened University of Florida, Ohio State, and even East Carolina University's robotic surgery program (#1 in USA). Many of these programs take 1 -2 students per year and not only that but they have to match to get in. They all did it with a YSU education.
Heck of the 8 kids that I graduated with at YSU one of them went to MIT and is a professor there now, one went into the Navy Nuclear program as a civilian instructor, and one got his PhD at Notre Dame and works at Los Alamos (last I heard), and the rest went into industry and are scattered. 2 of the 8 students have PhD's from some of the most elite institutions. That's is a rate of 25% and that is unheard of (and I purposfully ended with a prepositional phrase to the liberal arts majors).
What school are you going to go to and get student to teacher ratios of 8 students per teacher where every teacher has a PhD? No where. Period. Especially for the money. YSU is a fine academic institution. Just becuase they do not offer much in the way of Post Doctoral Education means nothing. All of my peers and family members have been successful in each of the respective fields from the education we received at YSU. YSU just got that $400,000,000 STEM grand from Siemens. This will only strengthen an excellent STEM program.
Why woulkd YSU be frowned upon academically? Liberal arts colleges teach a lot of subjects where upon graduation the students most common saying is "Do you want fries with that?"
In addition, it is much easier to run a Post Doctoral program in Journalism because the entry costs are so much lower than the cost of science, technology, and engineering programs.
That is not an excuse as to why the MAC would not let us in. Hell, Kent doesn't even have an engineering program. They have an archtectural program (no math involved here). Their drawings still required stamps from the engineers that graduated from YSU before these structures can be built. So the Kent State architect graduates work for the YSU graduates at the end of the day. Go get me a cup O' cofee b****....If you get my drift.
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The short answer from what I hear is not the type of courses as much as its the lower test scores and qualifications of incoming students with high remedial courses required for many of the incoming students.
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Okay I am going to do some math here:
Average Mac team has a budget of $6.9 MM and YSU has a budget of $3.4 MM in football. Football has to be one of the most expensive programs in any level. If YSU wanted to maintain football in the MAC then we would need to make up a gap of $3.5 MM per year so how could we do it?
Well right now I am not sure how much we get and pay for games except the money games, but I ll do some Uneducated math based on revenue and selective expense:
1. $400,000 per year on average from some team plus all ofhter games.
2. If we sell 12,000 tickets per game at $15 per ticket and have 7 home games that is $180,000 per game plus profits from concessions and parking. Let's say we clear $200,000 per game. That is a total of $1.4 MM per year.
3. Add in five other away games assuming we get $150,000 per game we would get an additional 750,000.
The current total based on my calculaiton is: $2.55 MM of 3.4 MM total budget. The gap is $850,000 per year.
If we joined the MAC:
1. Lets say we could play 2 money games for $900,000 per game assuming they pay D1A programs more money (at leas tthat is my thought). We would get $1.8 MM for thse games.
2. Lets say the MAC pays $250,000 per game and the remaining 4 away games pay an additional $1 MM.
3. Lets also assume that the attendence remains the same but ticket prices reach MAC levels of $30 per ticket. Then with 12,000 fans each home game it is now worth: $360,000 per game. Which is $2.520 MM per year.
4. If you factor in lower away game costs on 4 of the away games you are probably going to save $30k per game conservativley. That is a savings of $120,000 per year.
The new total is now: $5.44 MM per year.
The potential gap with the middle of the MAC based on my assumptions would be: $1.5 MM lower than the avergage MAC team budget in football.
Perhaps this is the real gap. But would YSU fans pay $30 per ticket.
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I'm really not sure where the first part of your analysis is going, but the flaw I see is I think you are counting on YSU (as a MAC member) receving $250k per MAC road game, total of $1 million.
I don't think conference members pay each other for games, but if they do, YSU would have to make a similar payment when they host a game. That would eliminate the $1 million benefit you have.
In addition to funding the gap in football revenues, you have to fund the gap in the rest of the athletic department revenues. All together you need about $10 million more than you have now. You have to fund the other sports as well.
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I'm really not sure where the first part of your analysis is going, but the flaw I see is I think you are counting on YSU (as a MAC member) receving $250k per MAC road game, total of $1 million.
I don't think conference members pay each other for games, but if they do, YSU would have to make a similar payment when they host a game. That would eliminate the $1 million benefit you have.
In addition to funding the gap in football revenues, you have to fund the gap in the rest of the athletic department revenues. All together you need about $10 million more than you have now. You have to fund the other sports as well.
There is some funny math in there. I only considered incoming revenue and saving associated with travel. I did not consider outgoing payments in either case. I was trying to understand order of magnitude. I would need to see the p&L to get real numbers put together.
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Nova and Power: I thought that was good topic for a thread (Liberal Arts Colleges and test scores), so I moved it under General BS.
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Some comments on what I am reading:
Yes the MAC issue comes up very regularly. Usually not during FB or the heart of basketball seasons though. Lets go team ...get our minds back in the game!!!
Academics vs. other schools in the MAC means nothing. If it does, it would be not in scores, but rather in program certifications. There have always been two reason that YSU has not been in the MAC:
1. Location
2. Facilities
We cannot change our location, but we have normalized relationships with Kent and Akron. Also, you can complain about him all you want, but Strollo has done a great job on facilities. Our non-football sports are performing at their highest-level since YSU's OVC or DII days. We are fully title-IX compliant. Believe me, that soccer field drew more eyes from FBS conferences than even WATTS. Let's face it ... the MAC has become all about soccer and baseball in recent years ...with basketball always being more revenue than football. Strollo has created a very appealing institution & given us options for internal and external (expansion) growth.
Also, why would you think the MAC would be more interested in YSU as an FCS football power? Do you think they enjoyed Marshall coming in and ruling the conference? We are far more more appealing as a stable middle-ranking FCS conference member. Why do you think were rejected the year they took Marshall? The MAC had no choice but to take Marshall, a former conference member. Marshall did not want any competition & we were certainly, at least, their equal. So it was Marshall that did not want us back then, and it was easy to get Akron and Kent to vote "no".
If the newspapers want to make demands on Strollo, forget investigating a move to the MAC. Besides if $$$ would come to us, we could probably do better & then we would be in the same boat we are now ...no rivals... only spending 3-times the money each year. Instead, Strollo should work on engaging the MAC to allow an exception to their policy on not allowing away MAC vs. FCS games. If the MAC was smart, they would require participation in the sports that are hard to find opposition for (like golf or softball tournaments, hockey, etc) as a prerequisite to allowing a team to travel for an FCS opponent ...that is a win/win.
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I don't see the MAC being interested in YSU at all.
YSU can't afford the MAC and they aren't interested even if YSU had the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.
Give it up !
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I don't see the MAC being interested in YSU at all.
YSU can't afford the MAC and they aren't interested even if YSU had the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.
Give it up !
What about conference USA? What if YSU was able to get some corporate sponsors like Boise gets? We have all this oil and fracking coming to town .......
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Have you looked at a map of CUSA ? Travel much ?
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Ecu and Marshall are both closer than the 2 closest Mvfc teams. Isn't odu in there too? Or are they caa? If odu is in there they are still closer than siu
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Are you kidding ? lol. The East Division has East Carolina, Marshall, Middle Tenn., UAB (Alabama), Florida Inter., So. Mississippi, and Florida Atlantic. The West division is all the Texas schools and Tulsa....... what are you smoking ?
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Ecu and Marshall are both closer than the 2 closest Mvfc teams. Isn't odu in there too? Or are they caa? If odu is in there they are still closer than siu
Your now moving in to the area of even higher budgets . Below is the list of CUSA teams. Mostly Florida, Texas and Louisiana.
And ECU is 576 miles from Youngstown. Illinois State is 512 miles.
Just give it up - its not happening.
East Carolina
Marshall
Middle Tennessee
UAB
Florida International
Southern Miss
Florida Atlantic
Tulane
North Texas
Rice
UTEP
Tulsa
UTSA
Louisiana Tech
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Okay I am going to do some math here:
Average Mac team has a budget of $6.9 MM and YSU has a budget of $3.4 MM in football. Football has to be one of the most expensive programs in any level. If YSU wanted to maintain football in the MAC then we would need to make up a gap of $3.5 MM per year so how could we do it?
Well right now I am not sure how much we get and pay for games except the money games, but I ll do some Uneducated math based on revenue and selective expense:
1. $400,000 per year on average from some team plus all ofhter games.
2. If we sell 12,000 tickets per game at $15 per ticket and have 7 home games that is $180,000 per game plus profits from concessions and parking. Let's say we clear $200,000 per game. That is a total of $1.4 MM per year.
3. Add in five other away games assuming we get $150,000 per game we would get an additional 750,000.
The current total based on my calculaiton is: $2.55 MM of 3.4 MM total budget. The gap is $850,000 per year.
If we joined the MAC:
1. Lets say we could play 2 money games for $900,000 per game assuming they pay D1A programs more money (at leas tthat is my thought). We would get $1.8 MM for thse games.
2. Lets say the MAC pays $250,000 per game and the remaining 4 away games pay an additional $1 MM.
3. Lets also assume that the attendence remains the same but ticket prices reach MAC levels of $30 per ticket. Then with 12,000 fans each home game it is now worth: $360,000 per game. Which is $2.520 MM per year.
4. If you factor in lower away game costs on 4 of the away games you are probably going to save $30k per game conservativley. That is a savings of $120,000 per year.
The new total is now: $5.44 MM per year.
The potential gap with the middle of the MAC based on my assumptions would be: $1.5 MM lower than the avergage MAC team budget in football.
Perhaps this is the real gap. But would YSU fans pay $30 per ticket.
"Fans" dont go to games when Tickets are 5$, no one will go see YSU for 15$ or 30$, No chance in hell
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Not the best time for YSU to move to FBS. FBS schools are fighting among themselves over receipts and whether to give players stipends beyond their scholarships. In this discussion, conferences like the MAC are regarded as the poor schools or the little schools. There remains the possibility that the big five FBS conferences form a new deal among themselves and/or that some current FBS teams will be pushed out of the FBS as we know it today because they cannot meet future standards for FBS.
Once the FBS resolves this issue (supposedly two years or less, but you know how these things can drag on), the question can be revisited. However, it seems to cost a lot of money to join the MAC just to earn the right to play in the Motor City Bowl.
I think, though, that Wolford's dream of $600,000+ a year for the money game may be pricing YSU out of the opportunity to play the big teams once a year.
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Spiderlegs is absolutely right. When the Big Five attain independence, whether inside or outside of the NCAA, everything changes. They will grant stipends to their athletes (I refuse to call them students) and that will end the delusions of the MAC, Sun Belt, and other pretenders. In a few years, we will be looking at four levels of college football: Elite (Big Five plus Notre Dame,) Division 1, Division 2, and Division 3. Why spend a fortune "moving up" when those schools will all be "coming down" to us.
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Spiderlegs is absolutely right. When the Big Five attain independence, whether inside or outside of the NCAA, everything changes. They will grant stipends to their athletes (I refuse to call them students) and that will end the delusions of the MAC, Sun Belt, and other pretenders. In a few years, we will be looking at four levels of college football: Elite (Big Five plus Notre Dame,) Division 1, Division 2, and Division 3. Why spend a fortune "moving up" when those schools will all be "coming down" to us.
I would be surprised to see it play out that way. Leagues like the mac should be worried.