ysupenguins.com ...fan home for YSU Sports
Non-YSU Sports and Other => General BS => Topic started by: ytownchief22 on September 13, 2017, 09:54:51 PM
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Here we go again... The kid wants to play. Can't blame him.
http://www.wfmj.com/story/36361580/malik-richmond-sues-for-spot-on-penguin-football-roster
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Maybe this weekend
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This course of events should not surprise anybody. Contrary to what some believe, the United States operates under the rule of law. Depriving a duly registered student of access to a campus activity SOLELY because others objected to his participation was an action that would never stand up in court. So the mess continues, and the university administration brought this all upon themselves by pandering to the mob. And for the fifth time let me say that I am not happy that this character came here.
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Why we bothered to invite him here, is behond me.
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So say he wins, so that means the judge forces YSU to play him? Say the ruling forces him to be on the squad, but how can a judge tell how much he has to play. Totally ridiculous.
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People, I could care less. The issue is that in the USA when you do your time, you are done. Mayne not in the eyes of God. Bit in the USA you are done after serving time
One person isn't going to make or break this team. The reason why we get into politics on this site is because we have people on here ignorant of the individual rites and laws. We are a nation of laws. Your opinion doesn't count in the court of law. Of this person did his time, he likely has a right to play.
So let's think about this for a moment before stating the moral aspect of this issue..
I have my own thoughts bit thinks becoming a ridiculous scene because up to 5%........yes......5% of the male population has a problem with some sort of sex crime. Hard to believe but true. BTW female population is unknown
I have been educated in this area and I trust no-one around my daughter's. The stat sausbot all
5 out of 100. How many people on each football team including practice squad? How many in the student populations? Sickening but real. It is a real problem and not as prevalent in the USA as other countries
So look around your FB friends and realize this. Get educated on what to look for. That's all you can do.
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This course of events should not surprise anybody. Contrary to what some believe, the United States operates under the rule of law. Depriving a duly registered student of access to a campus activity SOLELY because others objected to his participation was an action that would never stand up in court. So the mess continues, and the university administration brought this all upon themselves by pandering to the mob. And for the fifth time let me say that I am not happy that this character came here.
Wick is 100% right here. Tha administration pandering to the mob is what brought this on. I expect much more from JT. Standing up for students is what made him who he is. From Ray issac to Claret to Pryor, he has always stood by the students, even when they made obviously bad decisions.
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GODDAMMIT!!!!!!
I had been telling people we didn't need this drama after such a positive 2016-2017. People already hate Youngstown, in general, they hate "cheatervest" and can't stand Bo either. Now look where we are. This just sucks all the way around.
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This course of events should not surprise anybody. Contrary to what some believe, the United States operates under the rule of law. Depriving a duly registered student of access to a campus activity SOLELY because others objected to his participation was an action that would never stand up in court. So the mess continues, and the university administration brought this all upon themselves by pandering to the mob. And for the fifth time let me say that I am not happy that this character came here.
Wick is 100% right here. Tha administration pandering to the mob is what brought this on. I expect much more from JT. Standing up for students is what made him who he is. From Ray issac to Claret to Pryor, he has always stood by the students, even when they made obviously bad decisions.
Most of us posted on this website about this issue knew this is coming when the administration did not follow its own internal policy and cracked under pressure.
However, IMO, JT might be smarter than that. He might have figured out that this issue would ultimately end up in court. At that time, the judge would decide the outcome while removing the university from this mess.
Just like anything else, make the decision based on rules and regulations and not based on emotions.
It is lucky so far that he only sued the university to let him play. Pending on the next step taken by the university, YSU might have to take on organizations such as NAACP & ACLU for potential civil rights violation for denying him opportunities to possibly play for the NFL resulting in millions of dollars of loss earnings. While they are at it, they might as well toss the name of the person who started the petition into the law suit. Historically, these group could sue anyone and any organizations for alleged civil right violation. Baltimore, anyone!
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JT and the administration pressured Bo into making him unable to play this year. This is gonna be a big black cloud over the city and the program. The kid is a good football player, Bo sought him out and brought him onto the team for that reason. This is gonna be bad... Bo is already throwing JT under the bus.
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GODDAMMIT!!!!!!
I had been telling people we didn't need this drama after such a positive 2016-2017. People already hate Youngstown, in general, they hate "cheatervest" and can't stand Bo either. Now look where we are. This just sucks all the way around.
It's only going to get more ugly in the days, weeks and months ahead. Protesters, National media, the hacking group anonymous you name it we have it. I seriously doubt if Richmond enrolled into YSU on his own, he was influenced by someone..take a guess!!
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This is all Bo vs JT now.
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So who goes first and how soon? Tressel or Bo?
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I don't see either going but Bo brought this kid into this program. It was all him and so he's going to defend his guy. The only reason they made Malik ineligible to play this year is pressure from JT, Strollo and the administration so they're gonna come to blows at some point here. Btw, from what I heard in fall camp, the kid was regularly beating the 1st team O-Line. He's a strong, athletic kid on the outside who can play.
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The university responds:
http://www.wfmj.com/story/36366754/ysu-says-it-bent-over-backward-for-malik-richmond
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On the surface, hurting his ability to play professionally seems like a pretty weak argument, but as bizarre as our court system, who knows. Arguement that folding to mob pressure was wrong is coorect IMO.
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Dark cloud hovering over the university right now.
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Dark cloud hovering over the university right now.
Better be careful here. Maybe "Cloud hovering over the university right now." would be better?
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Dark cloud hovering over the university right now.
Better be careful here. Maybe "Cloud hovering over the university right now." would be better?
Political correctness to a whole new level. :D
A dark day for the board. Oops
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Just turned on my computer and MSN home page.... Was shocked to see this top news story of Convicted rapist suing YSU with Bo's picture. How totally embarrassing!
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Going to court is the best thing that could happen for all involved. If the judge says that he can play, which I believe will happen, the pressure is off of the coach, the pres and the trustees.
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I'm surprised this wasn't done before the start of the season..why wait until the third game?
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Breaking news: Federal judge issues temporary restraining order blocking YSU from stopping Ma'lik Richmond from playing
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Good. Let him play.
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I hear you chief..the ramifications however will be enormous..Just hope it doesn't affect the team to much!!
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People are stupid. There are many other things to worry about than this stupid issue. The kid did his time and in America that means you are free. He still has to register where he lives under our laws.
At what point did we turn into a socialism or communism? After you pay the price by doing time and have to deal with reputation /perception that will challenge you forever you continue to be judged are are not permitted to have the freedom of everyone else? WTF people. Seriously? This is stupid and all political. Some twenty something retard is driving this because they have no life and will never hold an important job or position in our society. This is their 2 min of fame, their flash in the pan before they become some sort of social worker. This is as dumb as the motjerfuclers that want to bring in Syrian refugees. We have a right to keep them out for as long as we want because they aren't citizens. However, since this kid is a citizen he has rights that are being taken away but the godamned communists don't understand it. They should do something productive not destructive. What are the ends to the mean here? I will tell you. NOTHING. They will only try to destroy a person with issues that have taken him partly down that road. What ******* consequence will come if he plays? Nothing. But if he doesn't play it only hurts him. Good for the judge. I'm glad I don't live there anymore. Town is running around with f'img morons now.
These protesting ********s need a lesson in civics, government, and history because they are coming from the dark ages where they clearly belong. This is Salem witch trial bullsh**.
To the morons in the dim range of the IQ scale answer me this.......do you think his individual rights are being violated? How would you like it if I shamed you on social media and got a petition against you because you are a w****? Being a w**** is illegal and it would really suck if you were the husband of the w****. But let's just say the w**** was jailed and served her time. Now the w**** wants to get a drivers license but now I protest it. What the he'll does that have to do with anything?
You are just a bunch of retards. This has nothing to do with football. Nothing.
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People are stupid. There are many other things to worry about than this stupid issue. The kid did his time and in America that means you are free. He still has to register where he lives under our laws.
At what point did we turn into a socialism or communism? After you pay the price by doing time and have to deal with repitation /perception that will challenge you forever you continue to be judged are are not permitted to have the freedom of everyone else? WTF people. Seriously? This is stupid and all political. Some twenty something retard is driving this because they have no life and will never hold an important job or position in our society. This is their 2 min of fame, their flash in the pan before they become some sort of social worker. This is as dumb as the motjerfuclers that want to bring in Syrian refugees. We have a right to keep them out for as long as we want because they aren't citizens. However, since this kid is a citizen he has rights that are being taken away but the godamned communists don't understand it. They should do something productive not destructive. What are the ends to the mean here? I will tell you. NOTHING. They will only try to destroy a person with issues they have taken him partly down that road. What ******* consequence will come if he plays? Nothing. But if he doesn't play it only hurts him. Good for the judge. I'm glad I don't live there anymore. Town is running around with f'img morons now.
These protesting ********s need a lesson in civics, government, and history because they are coming from the dark ages where they clearly belong. This is Salem with trial bullsh**.
Awesome!! Right on! Couldn't have said it better myself!!
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From reading the court filing last night, to me the judge was bound to grant this temporary restraining order. Let's hope he makes the most of this opportunity as a Student-Athlete of Youngstown State University, but more importantly, makes the most of this amazing second chance in life God has given him.
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Let people protest. What, all 10 of them are really gonna make a difference ? Nobody goes to the games anyway lol.
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People are stupid. There are many other things to worry about than this stupid issue. The kid did his time and in America that means you are free. He still has to register where he lives under our laws.
At what point did we turn into a socialism or communism? After you pay the price by doing time and have to deal with reputation /perception that will challenge you forever you continue to be judged are are not permitted to have the freedom of everyone else? WTF people. Seriously? This is stupid and all political. Some twenty something retard is driving this because they have no life and will never hold an important job or position in our society. This is their 2 min of fame, their flash in the pan before they become some sort of social worker. This is as dumb as the motjerfuclers that want to bring in Syrian refugees. We have a right to keep them out for as long as we want because they aren't citizens. However, since this kid is a citizen he has rights that are being taken away but the godamned communists don't understand it. They should do something productive not destructive. What are the ends to the mean here? I will tell you. NOTHING. They will only try to destroy a person with issues that have taken him partly down that road. What ******* consequence will come if he plays? Nothing. But if he doesn't play it only hurts him. Good for the judge. I'm glad I don't live there anymore. Town is running around with f'img morons now.
These protesting ********s need a lesson in civics, government, and history because they are coming from the dark ages where they clearly belong. This is Salem witch trial bullsh**.
To the morons in the dim range of the IQ scale answer me this.......do you think his individual rights are being violated? How would you like it if I shamed you on social media and got a petition against you because you are a w****? Being a w**** is illegal and it would really suck if you were the husband of the w****. But let's just say the w**** was jailed and served her time. Now the w**** wants to get a drivers license but now I protest it. What the he'll does that have to do with anything?
You are just a bunch of retards. This has nothing to do with football. Nothing.
So...the Salem witch trials---you know those people weren't witches, right? But, this Richmond kid is actually a gang rapist.
I also find it hilarious you find Syrian refugees more threatening than an actual convicted gang rapist. I don't understand what refugees have to do with this, but...
I also don't understand how being against a gang rapist representing the university community in a sport with a significant rape culture problem is akin to socialism or communism or whatever temper tantrum you are trying to have over "political correctness".
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This course of events should not surprise anybody. Contrary to what some believe, the United States operates under the rule of law. Depriving a duly registered student of access to a campus activity SOLELY because others objected to his participation was an action that would never stand up in court. So the mess continues, and the university administration brought this all upon themselves by pandering to the mob. And for the fifth time let me say that I am not happy that this character came here.
Despite your continued insistence that the university legally has to give this kid a spot on the team, I still don't see why that is the case. People don't make sports teams all the time. It can be for talent, character, whatever...Everyone doesn't get a spot on the football team until they break the school's code of conduct as a student.
The school screwed this up for sure. They never should have aggressively courted him for the team. They should have had the foresight to realize that people would react negatively to one of the most well-known gang rapists in the state being welcomed on to the football team---particularly on the heels recent such ugly events in college football around sexual misconduct (most notably Baylor). And, once they embraced the kid, this half measure was pretty crappy too. No one was happy with "he is on the team, but he isn't".
As an aside---if a convicted gang rapist who served less than a 10 month sentence thinks there is some sort of anti-male bias (as his court argument suggests) in the world then he certainly needs some more rehabilitation.
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^^^^^ Gezzzz did not realize he was part of a gang also??
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Richmond actually quit the football team after YSU came down with their decision in August
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People are stupid. There are many other things to worry about than this stupid issue. The kid did his time and in America that means you are free. He still has to register where he lives under our laws.
At what point did we turn into a socialism or communism? After you pay the price by doing time and have to deal with reputation /perception that will challenge you forever you continue to be judged are are not permitted to have the freedom of everyone else? WTF people. Seriously? This is stupid and all political. Some twenty something retard is driving this because they have no life and will never hold an important job or position in our society. This is their 2 min of fame, their flash in the pan before they become some sort of social worker. This is as dumb as the motjerfuclers that want to bring in Syrian refugees. We have a right to keep them out for as long as we want because they aren't citizens. However, since this kid is a citizen he has rights that are being taken away but the godamned communists don't understand it. They should do something productive not destructive. What are the ends to the mean here? I will tell you. NOTHING. They will only try to destroy a person with issues that have taken him partly down that road. What ******* consequence will come if he plays? Nothing. But if he doesn't play it only hurts him. Good for the judge. I'm glad I don't live there anymore. Town is running around with f'img morons now.
These protesting ********s need a lesson in civics, government, and history because they are coming from the dark ages where they clearly belong. This is Salem witch trial bullsh**.
To the morons in the dim range of the IQ scale answer me this.......do you think his individual rights are being violated? How would you like it if I shamed you on social media and got a petition against you because you are a w****? Being a w**** is illegal and it would really suck if you were the husband of the w****. But let's just say the w**** was jailed and served her time. Now the w**** wants to get a drivers license but now I protest it. What the he'll does that have to do with anything?
You are just a bunch of retards. This has nothing to do with football. Nothing.
So...the Salem witch trials---you know those people weren't witches, right? But, this Richmond kid is actually a gang rapist.
I also find it hilarious you find Syrian refugees more threatening than an actual convicted gang rapist. I don't understand what refugees have to do with this, but...
I also don't understand how being against a gang rapist representing the university community in a sport with a significant rape culture problem is akin to socialism or communism or whatever temper tantrum you are trying to have over "political correctness".
My point about the witch trials is that some of the women that were accused did commit crimes of the day but some were innocent. Look up the origin of the term "Witch Hunt". They were actively looking to prosecute people they disliked or didn't understand. Same thing here. You don't agree that he should be on the team, and therefore you don't think he has any rights.
Idealists such as yourself are a huge problem. You are inconsistent in the application of laws and rights since you have to agree with it. But of you disagree.....well then the rules are different for those people. People just like you have elected a Mayor in Youngstown with a criminal record too and he represents the city. But that's ok because you agree with some part of the political party he stands for or something else.
You are obviously one of the retards that desperately needs a civics lesson based on your statement on Syrian refugees. How many other people convicted of crimes attend universities for education? You would be surprised. You want to slice and dice nomenclature because that is all you know how to do. I know exactly where you stand and see the colors of the rainbow in your statements.
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LOL. Wow. I would have responses for all of this, but when you are in a conversation with a person who says things like "You are obviously one of the retards", it is best to know the kind of person you are dealing with and walk away.
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^^^^^ Gezzzz did not realize he was part of a gang also??
gang rapist could better be refered to as a group rapist. the was a group (gang) of people participating/watching. I have never seen Richmond listed as beloinging to a organizined gang.
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Boston, one quick clarification. The university did not have to legally give this kid a spot on the team. If I were the athletic director, it would have never happened. But the fact is that it did happen. He was on the team, and he clearly had the athletic talent. He was denied the opportunity to participate solely because of popular reaction. That is the circumstance that conflicted with the law.
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Let people protest. What, all 10 of them are really gonna make a difference ? Nobody goes to the games anyway lol.
http://www.ysusports.com/sports/fball/2017-18/releases/ticket-package In a effort to get more people in the stands our athletic department has come out with a conference ticket package full of goodies..including bobblehead dolls of Moss and Rivers ..They should let everyone in free for the C.C. St. game that wants to go that doesn't have a ticket.
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Let people protest. What, all 10 of them are really gonna make a difference ? Nobody goes to the games anyway lol.
http://www.ysusports.com/sports/fball/2017-18/releases/ticket-package In a effort to get more people in the stands our athletic department has come out with a conference ticket package full of goodies..including bobblehead dolls of Moss and Rivers ..They should let everyone in free for the C.C. St. game that wants to go that doesn't have a ticket.
Do the loyal season ticket holders get any of these goodies?
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http://www.wfmj.com/story/36375666/ysu-appealing-malik-richmond-court-order
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Bo and Tressel are both on board for this kid playing. It's others in the administration who are making a fuss because of some people in the community being upset.
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Richmond actually quit the football team after YSU came down with their decision in August
Hey penguinpower, will you confirm that he hasn't been practicing?
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Based on today's standards I would of never been eligible . I was 16 in in 1976 and with the exception of NOT fondling an intoxicated female,I did many things that would make the snowflakes of today go nuts. I grew up and will let a higher judge then a bunch of leftists be the judge. Hope the same goes for Richmond.
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Richmond actually quit the football team after YSU came down with their decision in August
Hey penguinpower, will you confirm that he hasn't been practicing?
My understanding which has been confirmed by the news media is that he was removed from the roster. I believe it was several weeks ago
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Let people protest. What, all 10 of them are really gonna make a difference ? Nobody goes to the games anyway lol.
http://www.ysusports.com/sports/fball/2017-18/releases/ticket-package In a effort to get more people in the stands our athletic department has come out with a conference ticket package full of goodies..including bobblehead dolls of Moss and Rivers ..They should let everyone in free for the C.C. St. game that wants to go that doesn't have a ticket.
Do the loyal season ticket holders get any of these goodies?
I remember reading about this exact thing happening with the Columbus Blue Jackets. They were giving away all kinds of good stuff until the season ticket holders started complaining that they were the loyal ones and got zero. YSU takes us season ticket holders for granted with not even a kind "thank you".
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It should be noted, Richmond is still on the roster at http://www.ysusports.com/sports/fball/2017-18/roster
I never noticed him off it and last looked like 3 weeks ago. Not sure it is relevant because even if he did quit the team, if they convinced him to come back it could have all happened faster than they even got the roster updated anyway.
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I didn't see him on there about a week ago or so. WKBN reported he was off the roster. Doesn't really matter. This thing is bigger than the university. It is a rights issue. The football coaches could say that he can't play for other reasons though, just not for his past. It is totally irrelevant
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Bo and JT want him on the team and want him to play. It's pressure from the losers outside that don't give a crap about football who are making a fuss.
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Let people protest. What, all 10 of them are really gonna make a difference ? Nobody goes to the games anyway lol.
http://www.ysusports.com/sports/fball/2017-18/releases/ticket-package In a effort to get more people in the stands our athletic department has come out with a conference ticket package full of goodies..including bobblehead dolls of Moss and Rivers ..They should let everyone in free for the C.C. St. game that wants to go that doesn't have a ticket.
Do the loyal season ticket holders get any of these goodies?
I remember reading about this exact thing happening with the Columbus Blue Jackets. They were giving away all kinds of good stuff until the season ticket holders started complaining that they were the loyal ones and got zero. YSU takes us season ticket holders for granted with not even a kind "thank you".
That is the reason why most people on this board have been complaining about the sport marketing effort. Heck, even Trump is sill going around to thank his base supporter.
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It should be noted, Richmond is still on the roster at http://www.ysusports.com/sports/fball/2017-18/roster
I never noticed him off it and last looked like 3 weeks ago. Not sure it is relevant because even if he did quit the team, if they convinced him to come back it could have all happened faster than they even got the roster updated anyway.
Based on some reports, he received supports from many of his teammates. I read the judge's order. The judge indicated that he should be given equal opportunity as other players implying that coaches should play him just like any other players if he is good enough.
If he is better than his teammates and he was not played. It might cause morale problems for the team especially when his teammates thought he should have been in the game. Another law suit could be coming for not adhering to the judge's order.
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The Appeals Court has just ruled for Richmond and against the university. Time to move on and focus again on football.
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I know a lot of teammates love this kid and want him to play. As Wick said, time to move on and play football.
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If he has been practicing well and is good enough to play, then I hope Bo gets him out there tomorrow. Let's move on folks!
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He played. And when he had a tackle and they struggled announcing his name
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He played. And when he had a tackle and they struggled announcing his name
He came in sometime in th 3rd quarter and played till end of the game. They did not announce his name when he entered the game. They did announce his name when he made the tackle.
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Maybe we can move on
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Maybe we can move on
I hope so.
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One person who can't move on is @FootballScoop who went on quite the Twitter rampage this evening over Bo and his decision to play Ma'lik in today's game. Pretty bold accusations made in his tweets that I would love the local media to refute if they are not true.
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http://footballscoop.com/news/bo-pelini-plays-convicted-rapist-malik-richmond/ The staff at footballscoop usually gets their story right before they print. They had Bo picked to be our coach when know one else did. At the end of the day Bo is the captain of the ship and it was a coaches decision with playing Richmond. Bo works in mysterious ways, look at the one farewell snap he gave Ruiz in last years playoff game. Chief could be right here, there could be a war going on between JT, Strollo, administration and Bo..Hope that's not the case!! Footballscoop even went on the say Bo, an assistant coach and some players drove down to Stubenville and begged Ma'lik to reconsider shortly after he quit the team
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I don't buy it. I think everybody is on board on this and Pelini wouldn't go rogue on the university. Tressel and Pelini are in to giving these young men a second chance. Unfortunately the media and Social media want to create a problem so they can promote their agenda and have something to write about.
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I would not do football scoop a favor by clicking on their link
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Pelini cleared the bench yesterday, playing everybody who was not injured or redshirting. Had he not put Richmond in the game, he would actually have antagonized a federal judge.
This whole affair highlights the destructive side of social media. Unfounded accusations can't be challenged. Lies can't be refuted. Total lack of accountability for anybody sitting behind a keyboard.
Last week, Penguinpower furnished statistics that one out of every twenty male American teenagers manage to get into serious trouble. For all the outrage about Richmond, I wonder how many juvenile rapists are playing college athletics today in all sports and across all divisions. Somehow I think it might be more than one.
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Pelini cleared the bench yesterday, playing everybody who was not injured or redshirting. Had he not put Richmond in the game, he would actually have antagonized a federal judge.
This whole affair highlights the destructive side of social media. Unfounded accusations can't be challenged. Lies can't be refuted. Total lack of accountability for anybody sitting behind a keyboard.
Last week, Penguinpower furnished statistics that one out of every twenty male American teenagers manage to get into serious trouble. For all the outrage about Richmond, I wonder how many juvenile rapists are playing college athletics today in all sports and across all divisions. Somehow I think it might be more than one.
As I have stated before, as far as I know, since the university does not have a policy for background check as a condition for admission or participation in university sponsored activities how could he be singled out.
If I had student who is the best mathematician in the university and he/she is on the math team participating in the national math contest, do you think the faculty in charge could throw him/her off the team just because of a feloney conviction prior to attending YSU?
But, this is football, a high profile event?
His participations made the hardline in Today's Warren Tribune, headline in the sport page in the Vindicator, two editiorals in Vindicator.
Couple of years, When our STEM academic research team out performed Kent, Akron, CSU, Case in the conference, do you know how much coverages we received from these two newspapers? You guess it, ZERO.
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No doubt the media is fishing on this one. Watch the TV news and they can't get anyone much to comment, but they come to conclusions. On campus most students don't even know about it according to one report. Fake News?
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No doubt the media is fishing on this one. Watch the TV news and they can't get anyone much to comment, but they come to conclusions. On campus most students don't even know about it according to one report. Fake News?
Students in my class did not discuss it. Football players in my department did not bring it up and I intentionally stayed away from the subject with them to avoid putting them in awkward position. We just talked YSU football.
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Bo and Tressel are both on board for this kid playing. It's others in the administration who are making a fuss because of some people in the community being upset.
I'm with The Chief.
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The University rules and policies on this matter have all been followed, right? The legal system ran its course in this case as well.
If people didn't like that outcome, try changing those systems through the existing processes of doing so.
Don't cry and protest because you didn't get your way. Americans look everywhere for something to be offended by and then act like giant babies if their demands aren't immediately satisfied by apologetic capitulation. To me, that's not how our democracy should work.
Those are the rules we live by, and like it or not Richmond has met his obligations. I'm not thrilled that he is on the team, but that's his right.
It's absolutely awful what happened to the victim and I do not want to diminish that one bit.
Protesting and trying to get your picture on facebook or the news as this holier-than-though martyr for the injustice of the week is disgusting.
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If there is anyone on this thread that is opposed to Richmond being on the team, I am interested to know what you would like done? The only issue I can see is him being a possible threat to other students. In that case, do you see him barred from the campus for life? Do you see all criminals who have been caught, punished, and released from the judicial system barred from campus and YSU? Only some crimes? Which crimes do you see as life sentences regardless of legal standing?
To me the behavior of the Vindicator, the Tribune, some campus facility and students has been, if not criminal, at least anti-American and anti-Christian. This kid should be held up as trying to make something of what could easily be a downward spiral leading to more violent crime. Instead he is trying to turn his life around and the Vindy, Trib and many facility, students and public at large are trying to block him. IMO disgusting
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I had typed out a long message, but decided to go a different route with this post. At this point I know Richmond will remain a member of the team, and my preference doesn't matter due to litigation and the university having already made promises to him. I would have, however, preferred him to not have been allowed on the team. I do agree with the thought that playing collegiate athletics is a privilege not a right. The YSU Student Athlete Handbook even says so in the first paragraph. I can fully admit my thoughts are just that, my opinion. I know it probably is not even a popular one, but I don't mind that, no one has to agree with me.
So to answer your question, what I would like done at this point is nothing because I recognize with the litigation nothing can be done. I would have preferred that we didn't get ourselves into this situation in the first place though.
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The University rules and policies on this matter have all been followed, right? The legal system ran its course in this case as well.
If people didn't like that outcome, try changing those systems through the existing processes of doing so.
Don't cry and protest because you didn't get your way. Americans look everywhere for something to be offended by and then act like giant babies if their demands aren't immediately satisfied by apologetic capitulation. To me, that's not how our democracy should work.
Those are the rules we live by, and like it or not Richmond has met his obligations. I'm not thrilled that he is on the team, but that's his right.
It's absolutely awful what happened to the victim and I do not want to diminish that one bit.
Protesting and trying to get your picture on facebook or the news as this holier-than-though martyr for the injustice of the week is disgusting.
By protesting this gives some people Meaning & purpose in their life. They feel good about themselves because they took up an issue that they feel is important to society. God forbid they should fix themselves before protesting whether a guy plays football or not.
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I agree completely with go guins. We should be a nation of laws, not mobs etc.
YSU has always been a University with a goal of helping people succeed and improve themselves. I can't believe the University is working against that primary function of their existence in this case. As for the Vindicator I often feel they work to tear down the area, the University, and successful local people.
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I had typed out a long message, but decided to go a different route with this post. At this point I know Richmond will remain a member of the team, and my preference doesn't matter due to litigation and the university having already made promises to him. I would have, however, preferred him to not have been allowed on the team. I do agree with the thought that playing collegiate athletics is a privilege not a right. The YSU Student Athlete Handbook even says so in the first paragraph. I can fully admit my thoughts are just that, my opinion. I know it probably is not even a popular one, but I don't mind that, no one has to agree with me.
So to answer your question, what I would like done at this point is nothing because I recognize with the litigation nothing can be done. I would have preferred that we didn't get ourselves into this situation in the first place though.
Sports is a privilege not a right, I'm fine with that. But the right of ALL students. What would you say if I said "volleyball is a privilege granted white women, or MBB is a sport that only black men are privileged to play?" Yes, it is a privilege, you must follow the rules, get the grades etc. but you can't block somebody because you don't like what they did. Even if reprehensible. He came to school. Anybody can walk on to football, not sure what we could have done to "stay out" AND I'm not sure we should have. IF this kid is really trying to put his life together, maybe we SHOULD lead.
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I will admit I don't know the student at all. Maybe he is trying to put his life together, but if you are ok with saying it is a privilege then it is a privilege of all students, which means it is not guarenteed. Again we are talking about sports not attending the university.
As the gender aspects of sports... let me ask this, do we have men playing volleyball? How about women's basketball?
On your football walk on comment, not everybody is allowed to walk onto the team. You have to make the team even if you walk out. There are roster limitations. We can't have unlimited students on the roster.
So again, if it is a privilege, you can absolutely block a student from participating for reasons other than their conduct and standing at the university. There is a perfect justification for a litany of coaching reasons, enough players at a given position, overall roster limitation ect
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I will admit I don't know the student at all. Maybe he is trying to put his life together, but if you are ok with saying it is a privilege then it is a privilege of all students, which means it is not guarenteed. Again we are talking about sports not attending the university.
As the gender aspects of sports... let me ask this, do we have men playing volleyball? How about women's basketball?
On your football walk on comment, not everybody is allowed to walk onto the team. You have to make the team even if you walk out. There are roster limitations. We can't have unlimited students on the roster.
So again, if it is a privilege, you can absolutely block a student from participating for reasons other than their conduct and standing at the university. There is a perfect justification for a litany of coaching reasons, enough players at a given position, overall roster limitation ect
I have a different view than yours.
Any student has a right, under the YSU established policy in the student guide book. Therefore, he has the right to tryout.
Being a walk on as part of the team, he has to meet the performance requirements. If he meets/exceeds the requirements and is ranked high enough to be within the roster limit, he should be on the team.
The issue is that the petition wants him off the team no matter what. This has nothing to do with privilege. I consider that to be prejudice.
I will go back to my earlier point. If I put together an academic research team to enter a competition. There is an evaluation process which includes test, oral presentation. Can I deny the student's participation if he/she scores highest in both categories? Can I tell the student that he/she has the right to take the test but does not have the privilege to be part of the team? If the student happens to be female or gay or transgender or minority, what do you think would happen.
As to your comment about "not everyone could be a walk on", it is probably because they might not be good enough in the evaluation process (including myself).
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I will admit I don't know the student at all. Maybe he is trying to put his life together, but if you are ok with saying it is a privilege then it is a privilege of all students, which means it is not guarenteed. Again we are talking about sports not attending the university.
As the gender aspects of sports... let me ask this, do we have men playing volleyball? How about women's basketball?
On your football walk on comment, not everybody is allowed to walk onto the team. You have to make the team even if you walk out. There are roster limitations. We can't have unlimited students on the roster.
So again, if it is a privilege, you can absolutely block a student from participating for reasons other than their conduct and standing at the university. There is a perfect justification for a litany of coaching reasons, enough players at a given position, overall roster limitation ect
Title IX and the courts in their infinite wisdom have for all intents outlawed men's volleyball, and I actually think we DO have women playing BB. (pretty good, you should check them out sometime)
Yes,you have to make the team and I have no doubt I would not have, and the Richmond did. Played only a little yesterday and had a couple tackles and a sack. Kid can play, I don't think that was ever a question.
Either we believe in what we say we believe in or we change it. In this case it would require leaving the state school system and discrimination simply isn't allowed. Personally I think it's a good rule.
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Double ET some clarification from me. I did NOT sign the petition. However, by definition if the ability to be on an athletics team is a privilege, then it can be terminated at will. There are NCAA protections for scholarships depending on what was promised ect, but none of that applies in this cause.
Agreed, and to clarify my comment that not everyone can walk on was basically extrapolating out the argument that any student has a right under YSU established policy in the student guide book. The problems that exist with this statement are that there is a roster limitation as I explained and yes conceivably the coach would want to keep the most talented group on the limited roster size so some wouldn't "make the cut". But beyond that there are additional limitations to the right for all students to try out.
Example 1, NCAA eligibility requirements would come into play for any athlete. If you for example are working on a second bachelor's degree and are in your third year, even if you are 23, you are not eligible to play (all your years of eligibility are gone even if you haven't played because the clock starts from when you first enroll for your first bachelor's degree).
Example 2, if it is a privilege and not a right, then YSU is not required to ensure that you even get a tryout. YSU can simply deny your request, and not provide you with a reason (although they likely will).
Examples of it having been identified as a privilege:
I acknowledge that I can access the student-athlete handbook via the YSU web site at http://www.ysusports.com/information/compliance/handbook. I understand that I can print and obtain a hardcopy of the handbook free of charge in the Jermaine Hopkins Center for Academics. I am fully aware that participation in athletics at YSU is a privilege, not a right. My signature below verifies that I understand and do hereby agree to abide by these Student-Athlete Policies, Procedures, Rights and Responsibilities. I understand that nothing in this policy restricts my constitutionally granted rights, including the freedom of speech and religion. Finally, I understand and agree that failure to meet any of the University or Athletics Departments requirements, and/or violations of any policies may result in disciplinary measures, including but not limited to: reprimand, suspension, counseling, reduction and/or cancellation of athletic grant-in-aid and/or dismissal from my team.
As to your academic research competition, that is a different matter. Different rules apply. While both are extra circular activities, NCAA athletic regulations do NOT have an impact on academic research competitions. That being said, I could provide a couple of reasonable examples as to why one could deny a student participation in your above scenario. Let us assume that there can be only a finite number of team members. The individual student that scored the highest is notoriously unreliable. You know your team has a good shot at winning the competition regardless if that person is on the team. You could bar the student from joining.
This is a completely separate argument though and maybe you can't. Because the rules are different. You aren't signing the same agreement that you are above for athletics. Different circumstances and rules mean that although both are extra circular you may not be able to evaluate both situations the same way.
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I will admit I don't know the student at all. Maybe he is trying to put his life together, but if you are ok with saying it is a privilege then it is a privilege of all students, which means it is not guarenteed. Again we are talking about sports not attending the university.
As the gender aspects of sports... let me ask this, do we have men playing volleyball? How about women's basketball?
On your football walk on comment, not everybody is allowed to walk onto the team. You have to make the team even if you walk out. There are roster limitations. We can't have unlimited students on the roster.
So again, if it is a privilege, you can absolutely block a student from participating for reasons other than their conduct and standing at the university. There is a perfect justification for a litany of coaching reasons, enough players at a given position, overall roster limitation ect
Title IX and the courts in their infinite wisdom have for all intents outlawed men's volleyball, and I actually think we DO have women playing BB. (pretty good, you should check them out sometime)
Yes,you have to make the team and I have no doubt I would not have, and the Richmond did. Played only a little yesterday and had a couple tackles and a sack. Kid can play, I don't think that was ever a question.
Either we believe in what we say we believe in or we change it. In this case it would require leaving the state school system and discrimination simply isn't allowed. Personally I think it's a good rule.
I don' think he would have been able to make a discrimination case provided that we had not let him on the team in the first place. Which is what I still think would have been the right thing to do. Again, we went to where we did, which is why he absolutely should have sued. We can't cave to public pressure and it is NOW a discrimination case. Simply not letting him on the team originally? No leg to stand on in terms of a discrimination case.
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As a side note, individual member schools participating in NCAA sports set their own policies and practices regarding admission to sports teams. IN FACT, there are schools that require criminal background checks to be on the sports team. I can't find anything discussing current numbers but:
In 2011, Sports Illustrated and CBS News partnered with one another to research background check policies at the top 25 college football programs in the country. They found that only two of the top 25 teams at the time (the University of Oklahoma and Texas Christian University) had policies requiring criminal background screenings for incoming recruits. The investigation also discovered that seven percent of the players involved in those 25 programs had been in trouble with the law before or after entering college.
https://www.backgroundchecks.com/community/Post/4476/Could-Background-Checks-Become-a-Nationwide-Requirement-for-College-Sports-Recruits
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Ok, YO SHOW
I really want to get off the subject since we don't agree on this and move.
According the your scenario, I will just ask couple of questions:
1. On the case which the student might be unreliable, so he would be selected. However, if the student was reliable and was the best in all evaluated categories, how do you propose to kick him/her out of the team.
2. You stated that it is ok to screen all imcoming students and athletes. I am in total agreement with you. Unless I am wrong, YSU did not screen or do background check on any incoming students or athletes. On what ground do we single him out? How do you propose YSU to screen the entire student body to identify those students who will not be allow to participate in the "privilege " activities?
As an faculty member of the university, I must follow university policy, state and federal laws and not act on my emotion and personal agenda.
Peace and go penguins
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Ok, YO SHOW
I really want to get off the subject since we don't agree on this and move.
According the your scenario, I will just ask couple of questions:
1. On the case which the student might be unreliable, so he would be selected. However, if the student was reliable and was the best in all evaluated categories, how do you propose to kick him/her out of the team.
2. You stated that it is ok to screen all imcoming students and athletes. I am in total agreement with you. Unless I am wrong, YSU did not screen or do background check on any incoming students or athletes. On what ground do we single him out? How do you propose YSU to screen the entire student body to identify those students who will not be allow to participate in the "privilege " activities?
As an faculty member of the university, I must follow university policy, state and federal laws and not act on my emotion and personal agenda.
Peace and go penguins
Yeah we can just move on. You make some good points, and my position on the whole debacle is somewhat a complicated matter. I will say I do not have an answer to question 1. There would likely be very limited if any recourse to kick someone off the team.
I didn't actually take the position that we screen all incoming students, just pointed it out as a future policy to address this situation, but I do think it would be a good idea. To answer question 2, we would not be allowed to because they had not been completed prior to their admission to the team I suppose. But going forward, if we adopted this policy it would prevent this issue in the future. Besides, anytime a change like this is made, you have to "grandfather" clause existing players as no regulation like this would ever be ex post facto.
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One last thing, there is nothing the university can do at this point as he can't be removed from the team with the ongoing litigation. So I am not advocating that anything specific be done regarding him. This is up to the university to figure out and wait for the judge to rule on the case. And now we can move on 8)
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For the love of Pete, this is such a non-issue. Kid should not have been bullied, but since he was and someone at YSU, guessing trustees, wimped out, he had to go the legal route. At this point the judge is running the show.
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People, the university screwed up, just accept it and move on. they may have known this legal action was going to happen, just accept it and move on.
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Life isn't fair sometimes. It's done. Just like the Presidential election. Grow a set and move on. Go Penguins!
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People, the university screwed up, just accept it and move on. they may have known this legal action was going to happen, just accept it and move on.
This is a bye week, why the rush to move on?
I disagree. I do NOT think the university screwed up. I believe the university. or at least a couple of significant leaders of YSU, saw a young man trying to turn a troubled life around and stepped in to HELP the young man. I see a good chunk of the comunity and in particular the Vindicator as the screw ups. Trying to block and ruin the young man's efforts to become a useful member of society. The man in question servied his time. If you believe his crime should be a death or at least life sentence then work to change the law. For me, as a Christian, I am willing to forgive the guy and offer him a chance to rejoin society. Many of you are not, and for that I am sad. I'm proud of Bo's efforts in this case.
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People, the university screwed up, just accept it and move on. they may have known this legal action was going to happen, just accept it and move on.
This is a bye week, why the rush to move on?
I disagree. I do NOT think the university screwed up. I believe the university. or at least a couple of significant leaders of YSU, saw a young man trying to turn a troubled life around and stepped in to HELP the young man. I see a good chunk of the comunity and in particular the Vindicator as the screw ups. Trying to block and ruin the young man's efforts to become a useful member of society. The man in question servied his time. If you believe his crime should be a death or at least life sentence then work to change the law. For me, as a Christian, I am willing to forgive the guy and offer him a chance to rejoin society. Many of you are not, and for that I am sad. I'm proud of Bo's efforts in this case.
Maybe you can provide an example of the newspaper taking a position against Ma'lik Richmond playing. Because the only opinion piece to take a stand one way or the other that I can recall was in favor of the kid getting a second chance ("The school of redemption," Todd Franko, Aug. 6). Bertram de Souza's pieces ("Gift for YSU's faculty," Aug. 6; "Another black eye for Valley," Aug. 13; and "YSU's prez on hot seat," Sept. 17) mentioned Richmond, but the topic of each was how YSU leadership approached the subject. As far as I can tell, those columns took no stand on whether or not the kid should be on the team.
Facts matter. Misguided and misleading bloviation, not so much.
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okay so then then the university screwed up go guins. The screw up was trying to trump law and the NCAA. We need to have a little faith in the original judge. I refuse to believe that a siting judge would not have sentenced him to a much more harsh sentence (let it transfer to adult prison at age 18-21) if this was a more serious crime. That being said, these protesters need to realize that their carrying on is doing more to diminish Richmond's actions. I applaud the efforts to try and keep him out (of school not merely football), but it is over and the smartest thing to do is spend your efforts keeping track of him, not holding up signs and drinking coffee. I am a person who believes all criminals have no rights. Rights only belong to law abiding citizens. However, that is not the way our legal system works and it is not fair to single out one person.
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okay so then then the university screwed up go guins. The screw up was trying to trump law and the NCAA. We need to have a little faith in the original judge. I refuse to believe that a siting judge would not have sentenced him to a much more harsh sentence (let it transfer to adult prison at age 18-21) if this was a more serious crime. That being said, these protesters need to realize that their carrying on is doing more to diminish Richmond's actions. I applaud the efforts to try and keep him out (of school not merely football), but it is over and the smartest thing to do is spend your efforts keeping track of him, not holding up signs and drinking coffee. I am a person who believes all criminals have no rights. Rights only belong to law abiding citizens. However, that is not the way our legal system works and it is not fair to single out one person.
People who commit a chrime have NO RIGHTS? EVER? And I'm a Christian, so we will have to agree to seriously disagree.
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okay so then then the university screwed up go guins. The screw up was trying to trump law and the NCAA. We need to have a little faith in the original judge. I refuse to believe that a siting judge would not have sentenced him to a much more harsh sentence (let it transfer to adult prison at age 18-21) if this was a more serious crime. That being said, these protesters need to realize that their carrying on is doing more to diminish Richmond's actions. I applaud the efforts to try and keep him out (of school not merely football), but it is over and the smartest thing to do is spend your efforts keeping track of him, not holding up signs and drinking coffee. I am a person who believes all criminals have no rights. Rights only belong to law abiding citizens. However, that is not the way our legal system works and it is not fair to single out one person.
People who commit a chrime have NO RIGHTS? EVER? And I'm a Christian, so we will have to agree to seriously disagree.
Yea that's a pretty ridiculous statement. They do have rights, whether it be Richmond or a person that served 20 years and is out and is now an abiding citizen... They do their time, society can't continue to punish them.
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Richmond hearing for today has been postponed..probably a good thing..Need to stay focused for this game
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Cannot agree on criminal rights. Punishment is for justice; it is a punitive measure, not a method of invalidation ... the crime still occurred. I have right to live in a society without fear of being robbed and when someone breaks into my house, they robbed me of not only my belongings (or worse), but my right to live that way; I will never get it back. SO why should the criminal have rights? Then again, as I said, the punishment in this case was slight, so I feel the judge must have considered the severity of the offense (or he needs disbarred). Look at that idiot father of Ron Goldman and OJ. He sued for the Heisman trophy and won, in a civil court with a fixed settlement; yet the judge awards him a priceless gift. So does this mean OJ did not win it? Clearly we made a mistake in telling Richmond he cannot play, no one with any sense of fairness would disagree. I question why he was allowed to enroll in the first place. However, yes it is something we allow so things went the way they have. So if we allow him to enroll. we must allow him on the team, assuming he qualifies.
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not defending him but he was a minor at the time. Where are the liberals? can't he be rehabilitated? was his frontal cortex developed enough?
To me it is about rights. He has them period. served his time as a minor. done. regardless of what we think.
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Cannot agree on criminal rights. Punishment is for justice; it is a punitive measure, not a method of invalidation ... the crime still occurred. I have right to live in a society without fear of being robbed and when someone breaks into my house, they robbed me of not only my belongings (or worse), but my right to live that way; I will never get it back. SO why should the criminal have rights? Then again, as I said, the punishment in this case was slight, so I feel the judge must have considered the severity of the offense (or he needs disbarred). Look at that idiot father of Ron Goldman and OJ. He sued for the Heisman trophy and won, in a civil court with a fixed settlement; yet the judge awards him a priceless gift. So does this mean OJ did not win it? Clearly we made a mistake in telling Richmond he cannot play, no one with any sense of fairness would disagree. I question why he was allowed to enroll in the first place. However, yes it is something we allow so things went the way they have. So if we allow him to enroll. we must allow him on the team, assuming he qualifies.
Let's be clear on this. You are advocating 100% background checks on all students, faculty and staff. No former criminals (I assume you would place a limit on what, felonies?) can be admitted or allowed on campus?
This gets a little tricky as many juvenile offenses are expunged upon reaching majority age, and there was no crime even though there WAS a crime. In addition you have examples like this:
“Randy is convicted of assault with a deadly weapon. State law provides that the offense is punishable by up to one year in jail or up to five years in prison. The judge sentences Randy to four months in jail, three years of probation, and 200 hours of community service. The sentence makes the conviction a misdemeanor.” Now this guy had an assault conviction but a misdemeanor conviction, does he get in? If some misdemeanors get in and some don’t then what? Anarchy?
You will make -0- people on the campus safer, as anybody can just walk on campus and as we all know, YSU isn’t located in the best of places, plus you will raise the budget for legal and background fees by millions.
All this restriction stuff sounds good, but isn’t fair and doesn’t work. YSU’s mistake in this was bowing to the mob and baring play following an on-line petition, which is blatantly unfair to Richmond.
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Go, the sentence is not what makes that a misdemeanor, it is the charge. This is why many states try capitol crimes as murder 2 ...as they are concerned that 1) They may not meet the burden of proof, or 2) the jury may not impose the death penalty & a criminal can go free because of this. Laws are not so strict anymore and many states have allowed juries and judges the leeway to find them guilty of a lesser sentence; this is what you are probably referring to.
As to everything else you said, I pretty much say "yes" including that Richmond should play. Absolutely all university student submissions should be thoroughly scrutinized. Has nothing to do with the rights of the convicted, but the rights of fellows students & parents (aka victims and potential victims).
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This still seems like a football story, just 1AA doesn't agree with Bo:
I, for one am proud of our coach:
CLEVELAND (AP) — Youngstown State football coach Bo Pelini says a player convicted of rape as a teen has earned a second chance by staying disciplined, focused and out of trouble.
Ma'lik Richmond will be allowed to remain on the team's active roster after settling a lawsuit Monday against the school, which told him he wouldn't be allowed to play this season after he made the team.
Richmond was 16 in 2013 when he and a Steubenville High School teammate were convicted of sexually assaulting a 16-year-old girl during an alcohol-fueled party. Richmond served about 10 months in a juvenile prison in a case that garnered international attention through social media and included allegations of a cover-up to protect a storied high school football team.
Pelini told The Associated Press on Tuesday that he gave Richmond a chance after hearing him accept responsibility for his conviction.
"I didn't make this decision lightly," Pelini said. "He was extremely remorseful. I saw a young man who was desperately wanting to better his life and those of the people around him."
Pelini said Richmond stood out from other 21-year-olds because of his focus, discipline and maturity.
Richmond was released in January 2014 and attended colleges in West Virginia and Pennsylvania before transferring to Youngstown State in the fall of 2016 as a sophomore.
Richmond and his legal guardians spoke with Pelini and YSU President Jim Tressel about joining the team after he enrolled. Pelini researched Richmond's past before meeting him, then said he made no promises and told Richmond he'd have to earn good grades and stay out of trouble to be on the team.
"He stuck with it," Pelini said. "He went over and above. He knew he had no room for error."
Richmond began practicing with the team as a defensive end after Youngstown State's loss in the Football Championship Subdivision title game in January. Pelini said Richmond, a walk-on player with no scholarship, showed talent but was a "work in progress."
When The Youngstown Vindicator wrote a story in August noting that Richmond was on the team, a student circulated a petition calling for the school to bar Richmond from playing football. Youngstown State subsequently sent a university-wide email that said Richmond could continue to practice but could not be on the active roster this season and would lose a year of eligibility.
Richmond quit the team after learning of the email and went home to Steubenville, prompting Pelini, another coach, and three teammates to visit him and convince him to return to school.
Pelini said he told Richmond during the visit: "'You need to get your butt back to campus and trust that things are gonna work out. You can't walk away from school, you've come this far. It's time to stick it out.'"
It was a mistake not to publicize Richmond's place on the team or address concerns earlier, Pelini said.
"I'm not stupid," Pelini said. "I understand that the opportunity to be a part of the team raises questions."
Richmond returned to school. Less than two weeks later, he was in class when he learned his father, 51-year-old Nathaniel Richmond, was killed when he shot a judge in a courthouse parking lot and a probation officer returned fire. Pelini said it was another blow to Richmond, whose often-absent father was becoming more involved in his life.
Richmond grew up in a troubled home. He began living off-and-on with his youth football coach, Greg Agresta and Agresta's wife, Jennifer, when he was 8. They became his legal guardians and mentored him as college coaches began recruiting him in high school.
Pelini said Richmond's rape conviction and the intense public attention sharpened Richmond's focus and determination to rise above his past.
"He's been through a lot," Pelini said. "It makes you grow up in a hurry."
The day after Richmond's lawsuit was filed, a federal judge ruled that Richmond could play for Youngstown State. He got on the field during the second half of a blowout win against Central Connecticut State on Sept. 16, but didn't play Saturday in a 19-7 win over South Dakota State.
"He really puts his nose to the grindstone and brings it every day," Pelini said. "He understands the scrutiny that goes with this story, that with his background, he can't make another mistake."
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I do agree with it, do not support it. Again it nothing to do with the fact that a rapist (I already acknowledged that this was more than questionable in this case) should not be allowed to attend public school. When placed against each other, the rights of a society are far greater than the rights of the individual.
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I do agree with it, do not support it. Again it nothing to do with the fact that a rapist (I already acknowledged that this was more than questionable in this case) should not be allowed to attend public school. When placed against each other, the rights of a society are far greater than the rights of the individual.
I don't want to argue with you, but the point of the whole history of the USA is the rights of the individual vs the rights of the mob. It’s what makes the USA different. Nazi Germany or Japan or current North Korea were/are where the rights of the individual were insignificant to the mob/rulers.
Fortunately we don't believe crime is a life sentence. While many go back and do the crime again, many see the light and turn their lives around. My shop manager is a former Mansfield convict for drugs. He is clean and a taxpayer we can all be proud of. Got to give them a chance if you want to be a Christian and an American.