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YSU Penguin Athletics => YSU Penguin Athletics => Topic started by: Penguin Nation on November 29, 2015, 04:48:47 PM
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Who says history never repeats itself. If named the permanent HC, it will be fascinating to watch the following seasons unfold. It could be a chance for JH to redeem himself...or dismember another winning program.
http://www.si.com/college-football/2015/11/29/toledo-rockets-jon-heacock-interim-head-coach-matt-campbell
http://wkbn.com/2015/11/29/source-heacock-to-be-named-interim-for-campbell-at-toledo/
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle
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I would be shocked if he gets the job full time. He is a great guy and a good D coordinator, just not head coach material.
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That is fine Nation. However, you have to believe coach H was a failure. I have never known him to be a failure at any position. In fact everyone knows he was expected to replace Cam at Indiana, which was the major reason he was dismissed by Cam, who (in turn) suffered the same fate a year later. Heacock will get serious consideration for the job and rightfully so. Peter principle does not apply. Coach H is now considered a veteran coach ...I am certain that UT will be looking for someone about 20-years younger. I hope he gets it.
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Heacock just couldn't pull the trigger on some sub par assistants. We were paying all of them pennies on the dollar so the quality assistants wouldn't apply. I liked him and he represented YSU well and ran a clean program.
He followed a legend and a HOF coach which no matter what he did the pressure had to be huge. He got screwed out of getting us in one time and if we wouldn't have had the fumble against Marshall I think we would have qualified then too. I wish him success!
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Heacock did more with less than the previous clown (Wolford) and the jury is out on BP?!? 1st year not so good >:(
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Wolf > JH versus UNI and P5 schools.
I'd say that JH had the same resources as JT, but the truth is JH had more....much more. JH was handed a playoff caliber team...built and ready....all that was required was maintaining it. JT had to build the program when he took over.
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Yes, its funny how the cheerleaders here want to bend the truth. The good old boy crowd is alive and well. Heacock has one thing going for him at Toledo -- as much as he dislikes recruiting , its easier to recruit at Toledo than YSU. Higher quality athletes there than here. Bigger budget.
Still, its possible to screw that up ! ;D
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Yes, its funny how the cheerleaders here want to bend the truth. The good old boy crowd is alive and well. Heacock has one thing going for him at Toledo -- as much as he dislikes recruiting , its easier to recruit at Toledo than YSU. Higher quality athletes there than here. Bigger budget.
Still, its possible to screw that up ! ;D
How do you see Toledo as "easier" recruting than YSU? The athletes may be better, but they have to be better to compete at 1-A Bigger budget counts only if it is bigger than competitors, which I don't think it is. At YSU you are competing with Akron, Kent, Dayton etc for talent. It Toledo you are competing with Big10, how do they have a "bigger budget" etc? Again, you make no sense.
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YSU competes against the MAC for area players. FBS vs. FCS. Toledo competes against the MAC for players ( E. Mich. BG, C. Mich, etc )AND the LOWER B1G. That , in fact, brings in better players. Toledo has a bigger budget than YSU. It does NOT have to be as big as low level, losing B1Gs . It competes with MAC schools with similar budgets, all bigger than YSU. But Toledo has a winning tradition.
This is laughable -- Kent is a MAJOR losing program and still gets better players than YSU. Look at the area talent that picks Kent over YSU. Akron sucks and yet area stars pick them over YSU.
The point is if Heacock does end up the HC there, even as much as he hates recruiting and didn't do well at it here, he should do better there -- major program, winning tradition , FBS vs FCS, and bigger budget than YSU but same as the MAC, etc.
However, he IS capable of screwing it up. 8)
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This is laughable -- Kent is a MAJOR losing program and still gets better players than YSU. Look at the area talent that picks Kent over YSU. Akron sucks and yet area stars pick them over YSU.
This is why we need to play these schools in their house and establish ourselves as the #1 NEO D1 FB program. The MAC East is always ranked lower than the MVFC....and Can't and Akron are the worst of the MAC East. Let's dominate G5/FCS recruiting in NEO....and have some fun while we're at it.
What if we (God forbid) lose? Then we get a payday and otherwise are in exactly the saem position we were in anyway. No lose situation.
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Nick Saban was HC at UT....it only makes sense that JH would too :D
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Why is it we lose players to Akron and Kent. No one goes to their games. No tradition. No Bowl game until this year for Akron. What is the draw.
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Wolf > JH versus UNI and P5 schools.
I'd say that JH had the same resources as JT, but the truth is JH had more....much more. JH was handed a playoff caliber team...built and ready....all that was required was maintaining it. JT had to build the program when he took over.
Untrue in every respect. Duzzer was a much better HC than Tressel at that time and had great players. It is simply a matter of style. Tressel could not do squat in the OVC, which is why we went independent. Tressel then became an option offense, built up his coaching skills and moved on, leaving JH with little in terms of assistants.
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John Heacock is your classic great assistant and coordinator, bad head coach. He is a follower, not a leader. Never comfortable dealing with all the other parts of being a head coach; media, fans, boosters, public appearances, speaking and so on. But is very good in a dark room looking at video and putting together a great defensive game plan. Not a criticism, just a fact.
As for why players go to MAC schools over YSU, it is Division 1 FBS, you get to play on national TV, the MAC has a weeknight ESPN package, you get to play in bowl games. As for attendance, we don't draw much better, and we played two road games this year with less than 250 people.
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Why is it we lose players to Akron and Kent. No one goes to their games. No tradition. No Bowl game until this year for Akron. What is the draw.
3 letters. N. F. L. If you are a kid playing college football in anything but D3 you have been trained to think that if you "work hard enough" You'll play on Sunday. We all know this is not true. Getting to the NFL is equal parts talent, hardwork, and more luck than not. Part of that luck is, the biggest college you can feasibly go to the better chance you'll be noticed. Harrison, Edelman, Cribbs, Kline, Muir, Elam, Murray,Williams, Young, Gates, Simmons, Konz, Kitchen, Archer, Winters, All in the NFL and all played for Kent State in the last 15-20 years. There are probably more. In all 40 players in kent states history have made the NFL. I think that's a bit of a draw.
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Wolf > JH versus UNI and P5 schools.
I'd say that JH had the same resources as JT, but the truth is JH had more....much more. JH was handed a playoff caliber team...built and ready....all that was required was maintaining it. JT had to build the program when he took over.
JH could not match JT! Maybe because he was running a cleaner ship?! JH did not have half the $$ and facilities Wolfman had and produced better results with less #twocents Funny how you mentioned how well Wolf had a team ready for P5 teams but lost 3, 4 games in a row to MVFC teams to end a season LOL!!
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Wolf > JH versus UNI and P5 schools.
I'd say that JH had the same resources as JT, but the truth is JH had more....much more. JH was handed a playoff caliber team...built and ready....all that was required was maintaining it. JT had to build the program when he took over.
JH could not match JT! Maybe because he was running a cleaner ship?! JH did not have half the $$ and facilities Wolfman had and produced better results with less #twocents Funny how you mentioned how well Wolf had a team ready for P5 teams but lost 3, 4 games in a row to MVFC teams to end a season LOL!! UNI?? Beat arguably the worst UNI team in 25 years ::)
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Something else to bring up Red. When JT left, he not only left JH with no staff, Tressel also took all of his financial backers as well. This was a much more empty cupboard than people realize. It should also be pointed out that JT was his own AD, while Heacock had to answer to someone else. It may not seem like much, but it really is quite a change.
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Something else to bring up Red. When JT left, he not only left JH with no staff, Tressel also took all of his financial backers as well. This was a much more empty cupboard than people realize. It should also be pointed out that JT was his own AD, while Heacock had to answer to someone else. It may not seem like much, but it really is quite a change.
Balderdash.
I feel like I'm trying to convince you the sun rises in the East.
There are expected staff changes when there are HC changes. But, let's take your premise seriously that JT left JH with an "empty cupboard." What happened when JH filled the cupboard? Let's look at his first four years as HC:
2001 Youngstown State 8–3 5–2
2002 Youngstown State 7–4 4–3
2003 Youngstown State 5–7 2–5
2004 Youngstown State 4–7 2–5
Wait?! If the cupboard was bare in 2001, wouldn't that have been the worst year, and then the record would've improved after filling the cupboard?
The truth is the cupboard was full in 2001 with a team that was in the playoffs in 2000 and in a National Championship game in 1999. JH set the cupboard on fire and then took a piss on it.
He has the skill set to be an DC. I don't know anyone who would dispute that. He is a proven failure at HC. That's normal and that's OK. No one is good at all things. Paladin said something that is interesting. Maybe at UT, his inadequacies as HC will be masked by a larger budget, fan base, etc. I think that there likely is some truth in that. Also, likely he's learned a few things since his time at YSU. My guess is if he becomes the permanent HC at UT, the slope of decline will be less steep than at YSU, but present nonetheless, and the tolerance for the decline will be very limited, and he'll be gone from UT within 5 years.
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Wolf > JH versus UNI and P5 schools.
I'd say that JH had the same resources as JT, but the truth is JH had more....much more. JH was handed a playoff caliber team...built and ready....all that was required was maintaining it. JT had to build the program when he took over.
Tressel could not do squat in the OVC, which is why we went independent.
Our last year in the OVC, we were 8-4/5-1, and tied for first place in the OVC.....and made the playoffs.
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Understand, much of the MAC is glorified FCS players, not true FBS caliber players. Yet given the choice , a local player will most always opt for the Kent, Akrons and Ball St.s . It isn't a better program, but it is the "big time" , even as a perpetual major loser. Consider that if the local player was a true FBS type, he would get B1G, ACC, etc offers. He'd go there. But he is getting a glorified FCS offer to go to Kent or Akron as a "fbs".
Toledo draws a strong Toledo area base of talent and recruits well in Cleveland, Columbus and Dayton-Cincy. Add in W.Pa and Fla. and they get good kids. Even bad coaches at Toledo get good players. Many are offered by the dregs of the B1G and chose UT becasue they still get a FBS schollie but at a winning tradition program. That may give Heacock some cushion. While he might get the job, I'd be looking for a younger coach and one making a name for himself on the way up the ranks... hungry........ Heacock lacks fire and drive as a senior citizen. And, he is going nowhere.
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"Understand, much of the MAC is glorified FCS players, not true FBS caliber players"
OK, boy wonder, you just put this s _ _ _ like you know what you are talking about and most times you don't have a clue. Just WTF is a "glorified FCS player"? You type like you are saying something, but it is just meaningless drivel.
You say "Toledo draws a strong Toledo area base of talent and recruits well in Cleveland, Columbus and Dayton-Cincy. Add in W.Pa and Fla"
YSU has more local area talent on our roster than Toledo does from around Toledo and we have far more Fla. players than Toledo. Again, you just make S _ _ _ and post it as fact, when it isn't.
All your crap about "better programs" carrying things on it's own, is NOT TRUE. Maybe for a season or 2 but college 'ball (Foot and basket) are all about recruiting. UNC basketball #1 or #2 all time, but put Guthrie in charge and what happens? Michigan at least top 5 all time in football and put a couple bums in charge for a few years and what happens?
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Something else to bring up Red. When JT left, he not only left JH with no staff, Tressel also took all of his financial backers as well. This was a much more empty cupboard than people realize. It should also be pointed out that JT was his own AD, while Heacock had to answer to someone else. It may not seem like much, but it really is quite a change.
Balderdash.
I feel like I'm trying to convince you the sun rises in the East.
There are expected staff changes when there are HC changes. But, let's take your premise seriously that JT left JH with an "empty cupboard." What happened when JH filled the cupboard? Let's look at his first four years as HC:
2001 Youngstown State 8–3 5–2
2002 Youngstown State 7–4 4–3
2003 Youngstown State 5–7 2–5
2004 Youngstown State 4–7 2–5
Wait?! If the cupboard was bare in 2001, wouldn't that have been the worst year, and then the record would've improved after filling the cupboard?
The truth is the cupboard was full in 2001 with a team that was in the playoffs in 2000 and in a National Championship game in 1999. JH set the cupboard on fire and then took a piss on it.
He has the skill set to be an DC. I don't know anyone who would dispute that. He is a proven failure at HC. That's normal and that's OK. No one is good at all things. Paladin said something that is interesting. Maybe at UT, his inadequacies as HC will be masked by a larger budget, fan base, etc. I think that there likely is some truth in that. Also, likely he's learned a few things since his time at YSU. My guess is if he becomes the permanent HC at UT, the slope of decline will be less steep than at YSU, but present nonetheless, and the tolerance for the decline will be very limited, and he'll be gone from UT within 5 years.
I really do not see the point that you are trying to make. Obviously, the immediate players stayed similar, but there was limited input from coach H beyond what he did under JT. Which is also the point that you are making. We differ on the reason why ...you say the decline came because coach H lacked skill and I say it was many other items, none more than a lack of resources. Players are players, they change least of all as they are already there (at least 3-4 years worth). I am talking about staff & in particular coach H's ability to bring in quality staff. There is no denying he had no previous HC experience at the DI collegiate level.
Answer this ...do you think the head coach Jon Heacock had the financial resources to hire DC Jon Heacock? NOT EVEN CLOSE. Coach H left YSU for a much higher paying position with Indiana. He only came back because he knew the HC job was soon to be his and that is what he wanted. Our most recent DC's salary was almost higher than Jon Heacock's entire staff (including himself). We were one of the lowest paying colleges in I-AA and this lack of resources showed. We had limited improvements to existing facilities. We hired coaches "on the cheap" that were close to the program like Cochran, Klasic and frankly Jon Heacock. I understand the lack of resources as we were in a desperate need to meet grossly-neglected Title-IX requirements & Strollo did what had to be done. The difference between you & I their is that I respect Strollo for what he did, as I respect Jon Heacock for the same. You do not.
Give this some thought: Jim Tressel's legacy at YSU was primarily defined by his hiring at OSU. Truly, 9 out of 10 recruits really had no idea whom he was at YSU. To prospective non-local recruits Tressel was no different than any other I-AA coach at the time. The reason non-local recruits came here was because we had "national titles" (as compared to other I-AA programs) and I bet the average recruit did not even realize that they all fell under JT's watch. Now once hired at OSU, many of JT's perspective YSU recruits (most-especially local) for the first-time probably realized how much talent that JT had (that is if he was good enough for the buckeyes, then he is too good for YSU) and they in-turn chose not to come to YSU, as they did not want to play under what is always the inevitable downward trend following a legend. Then factor in how much this was compounded by the university's need and desire to stay as local as possible in recruiting. After all, the gas to Warren is cheaper than plane flights to Florida and California.
Secondly, for your consideration: (If you believe that YSU had some resources to hire a quality staff after Jim Tressel) From the time Jim Tressel first received word he was most-likely going to OSU (which was quite some time before he actually left) he contacted anyone and everyone to see if they had interest in coaching with him in Columbus. Of course he knew it would be at least a year or 2, so these people would refuse any other job offer ...including those from new YSU head-coach Jon Heacock. So JT not only took Heacock's existing staff, but also potential quality staff member hoping to get even a minor roll in the "JT/OSU show". Why not? A year as even an unpaid assistant at OSU gives you tremendous second-job opportunity.
The only reason we kept OC Jon Heacock was because he wanted to stay local with his family. His skills as as OC are average to above; but that is the most I would give him, but he certainly was qualified to be a coach at any FBS program. Furthermore I have never said he was "the cat's meow" of coaching at any position. His skills as a head coach are far better than his skills as an OC (although maybe not the case in 2015). I simply saw a man that gave everything he had to this university & his skills were quite good; in his own way, better than Tressel as he was far more willing to adapt. What I see in coach H is that he is committed. This level of commitment is not unnoticed by the UT administration. This is why he is the interim head coach.
BTW, at no other university (outside of YSU) could JH's perceived inadequacies be masked more than at YSU; he was family. UT is not big school. Can they recruit better than YSU? ...by far. Any recruit would be a fool to chose YSU over UT on purely performance measures. Also, lasting 5-years would be a great accomplishment for JH or any coach.
As to your 1999 title game. I would ask you to recall that game and why we lost as that is what plagued coach H the majority of his head-coaching tenure; none more noticeable than in 2006. This post is already a book so I will not go there.
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Interesting article from the Vindy. It appears unlikely that JH will be the Rocket's full time HC:
http://www.vindy.com/news/2015/dec/02/heacock-guiding-rockets/
"As for Heacock himself, it seems unlikely that he is getting a one-game audition to remove the interim tag.
“When I got into this I might have felt like that would be an option or least an opportunity, but the longer it goes, I think they’re looking for a guy with an offensive background and possibly some ties to the university,” he said.
“I think they’re looking outside the program. We have another guy, Jason Candle, who’s from the area and has been our offensive coordinator for seven years and has done a tremendous job and is a West Branch guy like myself.
“Between the two of us, we sensed it’s going to an outside source . They have search committee and in fairness, that’s the direction they’re going in and that’s fine. That’s their choice. It doesn’t have any impact on me hanging here trying to help these guys.” "
And JH continues to undermine YSU even after being fired by poaching talent away from the area:
"He still keeps up with affairs in the Mahoning Valley, more so the high school teams than YSU.
“I recruit that area, so I pay attention to a lot of the high school teams,” Heacock said. “Occasionally through the process I’ll hear a little bit about Youngstown. I do stay in touch with coach [Jim Tressel], who’s been very important in my life and who I have a lot of respect for. In all my stops, he and I have stayed in touch.” "
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And JH continues to undermine YSU even after being fired by poaching talent away from the area:
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LOL ! After looking at Toledo's roster, he didn't get much !! ;D
But to be fair , there isn't much here anymore.
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Jon Heacock single handedly destroyed the YSU football program. I challenge anyone to tell me any different. Now the idiot is still trying to attack YSU football... what an idiot
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Jon Heacock single handedly destroyed the YSU football program. I challenge anyone to tell me any different. Now the idiot is still trying to attack YSU football... what an idiot
Not taking sides in this one since I know nothing about this, but I recall that the entire firing and contract situation was botched badly. I was at the selection show in DeBartolo stadium club when Heacock basically broke down and expressed his dissatisfaction with how the assistant coaches contracts were handled. He was some kind if pissed off. Keep in mind Tressel left him with Klacik (who is probably missing a chromosome) and Rekstis who is also a bumbling moron. It took Heacock a few years to dump them and get new coaches developed. I think Heacock lacked the contacts in the coaching community and was not big on recruiting. Pair that with small budgets and how could you be surprised at the result?
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Jon Heacock single handedly destroyed the YSU football program. I challenge anyone to tell me any different. Now the idiot is still trying to attack YSU football... what an idiot
?? I more than challenge you and how is he "still trying to attack YSU football"? It is a nice article.
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Jon Heacock single handedly destroyed the YSU football program. I challenge anyone to tell me any different. Now the idiot is still trying to attack YSU football... what an idiot
?? I more than challenge you and how is he "still trying to attack YSU football"? It is a nice article.
I'm with 1-AA If a 1-A coach recruits in NE Ohio, he isn't "trying to attack YSU football", he is doing his job. Good grief we don't have an "rights" on local talent. And JH certainly had limits as a HC, but destroy the program? I believe the number of coaches with 4 1-AA titles numbers about 1 doesn't it? JT had the bar pretty high. That next guy in after the legend has a tough road.
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Jon Heacock single handedly destroyed the YSU football program. I challenge anyone to tell me any different. Now the idiot is still trying to attack YSU football... what an idiot
Move on
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I saw an article that said they named their offensive coordinator to HC next year. If thats what they did, why did they make Heacock interim HC at all???
http://www.sbnation.com/college-football/2015/12/2/9836190/jason-candle-toledo-football-coach
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Because Campbell is not taking coach H to Iowa State, but he was going to take the OC; so UT threw a quick one year deal together to keep him.
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Football Scoop reporting that Heacock will join Campbell at Iowa St. and become D.C..Other sources say he is still weighing his options
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Good ole' Jon and the boyzz looked good last night against a ranked Temple team. I called for his head his last year here,, Shame on me :(
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Good ole' Jon and the boyzz looked good last night against a ranked Temple team. I called for his head his last year here,, Shame on me :(
His problem was more recruiting than coaching. No recruiting required in interim roll.
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Good ole' Jon and the boyzz looked good last night against a ranked Temple team. I called for his head his last year here,, Shame on me :(
His problem was more recruiting than coaching. No recruiting required in interim roll.
I really think it was more the entire staff's recruiting, as we had some really good recruits, quite a number of NFL tryouts and camps under coach H. Although coach H had the responsibility. I think two things gave him the reputation:
1. Said that he did not like the traveling required during the recruiting.
2. He did not have the depth of staff that coach T had, so Heacock really was traveling a lot more than a HC should. He could not get out into the local schools & make his face known.
Tressel had a good recruiting staff and he was basically called in "to close the deal" if need be. Coach H did not have that same luxury. To his credit ...although I think they a mistake with the type of players they recruited ...Wolf's first coaching staff were really solid recruiters.
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Good ole' Jon and the boyzz looked good last night against a ranked Temple team. I called for his head his last year here,, Shame on me :(
His problem was more recruiting than coaching. No recruiting required in interim roll.
I really think it was more the entire staff's recruiting, as we had some really good recruits, quite a number of NFL tryouts and camps under coach H. Although coach H had the responsibility. I think two things gave him the reputation:
1. Said that he did not like the traveling required during the recruiting.
2. He did not have the depth of staff that coach T had, so Heacock really was traveling a lot more than a HC should. He could not get out into the local schools & make his face known.
Tressel had a good recruiting staff and he was basically called in "to close the deal" if need be. Coach H did not have that same luxury. To his credit ...although I think they a mistake with the type of players they recruited ...Wolf's first coaching staff were really solid recruiters.
Another thing that gave him the "poor recruiter" label was the poor recruiting classes! Maybe your comments are right about a "few good men" with NFL prospects is on the money, but frankly the breadth and depth of his recruiting didn't measure up. Neither did Wolford’s. I wonder if the staff restrictions can be supported with budget numbers from the periods in question.
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I would not agree there Go. I think coach H's consistency may not have been to the standards of the middle Tressel years, but coach H's recruits were very good overall. The last few years when he was trying to convert to spread, especially the year we were hit with injuries. However, those were his last years and that is what most people will remember about coach H. Hard to compare because the two different coaches (T & H) as we were in a conference at that point & the 'glory" years for YSU were as an independent. In general though, the top athletes during the Heacock years were well above most in the Tressel years. When we moved into the Gateway, our players were noticeably behind the rest of the conference.
Certainly there were exceptions in both cases. I also feel that the 90's was when the Valley started to diminish as a power prep-level recruiting base. So where Tressel could take a chance on a local kid (that may be a reserve in HS), Heacock could not. Heacock also did more recruiting in states like CA, TX and GA because of this.
I agree with you on the general recruit of Wolf, I did not say his recruits were good, but his coaches were good recruiters ...it is just that I did not agree with the style of player that Wolf's guys recruited ...predominantly on defense.
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Where IMO Coach H didn't recruit as well, I thought he was a good football coach. My issue with Wolford is he probably had more talent than Heacock, he wasn't much of a football coach. I don't recall seeing a player as a freshman even with the team 4 years later, much less getting better as a player. Now that obviously isn't factual. There had to be plenty of players last 3-4 years, but boy I don't recall many and I honestly would be hard pressed to say "Joe" started out slow but over time he really seemed to improve. Just didn't see it. We saw is season after season, player after player with JT.